Jefferson Road Upgrades (Charleston, Morgantown, South Charleston: schools, living, prices)

[JohnNada]

The roundabout will blow too many minds around here. Plenty of folks who will have no idea how to use it. How do I get off this thing? Should be lots of fun. Still better than the current mess though.

[Chriscross309]

I see the concerns about the traffic circles, but eventually people are going to have to learn how to use them. They are very effective in keeping traffic flowing and preventing major accidents. Sooner or later, people around here are going to need to learn how to use them. Eventually, places in Putnam County, Cross Lanes, etc... will implement them. We are very far behind the times on their implementation. Also, an up and coming design is the diverging diamond. That will certainly throw WV hillbillies thru a loop.

[Caden Grace]

Originally Posted by Chriscross309

I see the concerns about the traffic circles, but eventually people are going to have to learn how to use them. They are very effective in keeping traffic flowing and preventing major accidents. Sooner or later, people around here are going to need to learn how to use them. Eventually, places in Putnam County, Cross Lanes, etc... will implement them. We are very far behind the times on their implementation. Also, an up and coming design is the diverging diamond. That will certainly throw WV hillbillies thru a loop.

I think roundabouts have a place in the right setting under the right conditions; I just don't think this location is either of those.


Roundabouts in America are best in residential areas of urban sprawl. They do not hinder traffic and slow things down at the same time. Charleston has no real urban sprawl and where we do have it, ridge lines and hollows more than suffice as traffic controllers.


I would prefer that there be no interchange at this location and it was a straight shot from US-119 to MacCorkle Ave. I don't even like the idea of commercial access at the upper end. The whole point of this is to eliminate this bottleneck and simply widening the road but leaving in everything that is causing the current problem is just a big waste of time. All it does is allow for more cars at once to be caught up in the traffic zone.

[Chriscross309]

Originally Posted by Caden Grace

I think roundabouts have a place in the right setting under the right conditions; I just don't think this location is either of those.


Roundabouts in America are best in residential areas of urban sprawl. They do not hinder traffic and slow things down at the same time. Charleston has no real urban sprawl and where we do have it, ridge lines and hollows more than suffice as traffic controllers.


I would prefer that there be no interchange at this location and it was a straight shot from US-119 to MacCorkle Ave. I don't even like the idea of commercial access at the upper end. The whole point of this is to eliminate this bottleneck and simply widening the road but leaving in everything that is causing the current problem is just a big waste of time. All it does is allow for more cars at once to be caught up in the traffic zone.

I am of the opinion that the access to Kanawha Turnpike is one of the keys to this project becoming a huge asset for the area. If people can get right off 64 coming from the east, and can easily access the new road, then that will be a game changer for traffic flow to and from Southridge. It will lighten up traffic on a super congested 119, and will make it easier for people driving from the highway to shop and dine. In the grand scheme of things, there really isn’t a whole lot of traffic using that proposed roundabout anyways. Most of the cars will be staying elevated above and will not need to exit off the ramp. Any cars wanting to turn right on Kan. Tpk. Don’t have to use the roundabout anyways. The most likely users will be from cars exiting off 64 wanting to turn up Jefferson rd. Also local traffic will have to use it, but they will get the hang of it quickly. Honestly, the traffic circle is perfect for that spot. Most of the traffic won’t even have to use it. Something that might be an issue with this one however would be the fact that the bridge is supported in the middle of the circle. This blocks the view for cars wanting to go straight on Kan. Tpk. Lighting will be important as well!

A traffic circle should also be implemented in Cross Lanes at the Walgreens intersection. That would really help keep traffic moving.

[aeros71]

I agree with Chriscross that keeping access to Kanawha Turnpike is important for any future growth or redevelopment.

[Chriscross309]

Originally Posted by aeros71

I agree with Chriscross that keeping access to Kanawha Turnpike is important for any future growth or redevelopment.

As bleak as it has become, you have to at least keep hope alive that the Tech Park will someday prosper. Bridge Valley might move out, but Marshall is still there and so too are a few other organizations. Also, people people coming from Spring Hill need access to the new road.

[bballjunkie]

Roundabouts also need excellent signage for successful matriculation. I have no problems when the signage is available and clearly indicates where on the merry-go-round I am going.

[Marc64]

Originally Posted by Chriscross309

I am of the opinion that the access to Kanawha Turnpike is one of the keys to this project becoming a huge asset for the area. If people can get right off 64 coming from the east, and can easily access the new road, then that will be a game changer for traffic flow to and from Southridge. It will lighten up traffic on a super congested 119, and will make it easier for people driving from the highway to shop and dine. In the grand scheme of things, there really isn’t a whole lot of traffic using that proposed roundabout anyways. Most of the cars will be staying elevated above and will not need to exit off the ramp. Any cars wanting to turn right on Kan. Tpk. Don’t have to use the roundabout anyways. The most likely users will be from cars exiting off 64 wanting to turn up Jefferson rd. Also local traffic will have to use it, but they will get the hang of it quickly. Honestly, the traffic circle is perfect for that spot. Most of the traffic won’t even have to use it. Something that might be an issue with this one however would be the fact that the bridge is supported in the middle of the circle. This blocks the view for cars wanting to go straight on Kan. Tpk. Lighting will be important as well!

A traffic circle should also be implemented in Cross Lanes at the Walgreens intersection. That would really help keep traffic moving.

This is exactly I have been saying to the naysayers of the traffic circle since this video first got published. The entire reason for the flyover is because the bulk of the traffic will be heading towards Southridge not onto the Kanawha Turnpike. Locals will just have to get over the traffic circle scare as they are becoming more common in the US and this state. They are much safer and very effective at keeping the flow of the traffic.

I also agree that a traffic circle would do well in Cross Lanes along with restricted left turns along the entire road through town up to the second Speedway. If they consolidated some of those driveways at that intersection and did the traffic circle might work, but as it lies right now it would be difficult to make it work. I remember seeing a report done by an engineering firm not too long ago that was studying different alternatives to fixing the traffic issue there and one of them was two roundabouts, one at the Walgreens and the other at the Kroger intersection.

[Caden Grace]

Originally Posted by Marc64

This is exactly I have been saying to the naysayers of the traffic circle since this video first got published. The entire reason for the flyover is because the bulk of the traffic will be heading towards Southridge not onto the Kanawha Turnpike. Locals will just have to get over the traffic circle scare as they are becoming more common in the US and this state. They are much safer and very effective at keeping the flow of the traffic.

I also agree that a traffic circle would do well in Cross Lanes along with restricted left turns along the entire road through town up to the second Speedway. If they consolidated some of those driveways at that intersection and did the traffic circle might work, but as it lies right now it would be difficult to make it work. I remember seeing a report done by an engineering firm not too long ago that was studying different alternatives to fixing the traffic issue there and one of them was two roundabouts, one at the Walgreens and the other at the Kroger intersection.

I do not believe anyone is scared of a roundabout, in fact I rather like them. But, like all things in engineering, the application of the engineering needs to fit the need and perhaps more so, the expected future need. Jefferson Road is already 400% above traffic load for a road of this type, usage and location in comparison to other roads in West Virginia like it. That 400% over load is based on forced use, not demand, which is higher. How much higher, we cannot know at this time.


A roundabout is not a high capacity interchange. It is a continual flow interchange. That means it has a flow rate and under nominal conditions traffic will flow at the interchange at the design rate. Jefferson Road does not have a continual flow rate demand, it has an ebb/flow demand that varies from virtual no flow off peak to 400% plus at peak. A roundabout is not the answer for this need.


As for Kanawha Turnpike access.


Priorities must be established.


The primary priority - the reason this is being done in the first place - is to move traffic from US-119 (Corridor G) to US-60 (MacCorkle Avenue) in both directions at the expected and future load.


The first hurdle to do this is eliminate the intersection with the rail lines running parallel to Kanawha Turnpike.


Those two aspects form the primary need and primary hurdle of the project.

Secondaries include:


Accessing Kanawha Turnpike,


An alternate egress into the shopping center of Trace Forks and by extension to Dudley Farms shopping Center along RHL Boulevard,


Access to various commercial and residential needs along the existing Jefferson Road route at the upper and lower ends, these could be considered separate needs as they are not co-located,


The inclusion of these secondary concerns into the primary project can only be undertaken if they do not hinder the primary need.


The egress into and out of Trace Fork, is a luxury and while it would alleviate some of the traffic load at the Jefferson Road/US-119 interchange, it is not critical. It would not hamper the primary need and its inclusion into the project is reduced to the burden of cost.


The access for the upper portion of Jefferson Road by commercial and residential need is not avoidable but could be limited with a feeder strip that tied that demand into the egress from Trace Fork, thereby reducing the number of interchanges to one. This is crucial. Each interchange acts as a break on the flow demand and reducing it to one that is at best an auxiliary through even peak demand will put the least impact on the main arterial flow rate.


The lower access by commercial and residential need is also handled with a single intersection in the published design for this reason and is also unavoidable.


This leaves the one secondary need that is avoidable, would be a luxury and would impact traffic flow for the primary and other secondary demands: Kanawha Turnpike access.


In other cases that I am aware of, this problem has been a compromise in that partial access but not full is allowed.


In this case, geography would dictate that east bound Kanawha Turnpike traffic could merge from a right hand lane into traffic moving from MacCorkle to Corridor G.


Traffic flow from Corridor G to MacCorkle Avenue could have a right hand merge onto East bound Kanawha Turnpike allowing access to the Tech center and the east bound I-64 interchange further along as well as the back entrance into the CBD for South Charleston.


Traffic would be denied access to west bound Kanawha Turnpike from either direction on Jefferson Road.


Kanawha Turnpike would not have an interchange with Jefferson Road except for the two merging lanes.


The entire reason the roundabout is proposed is because of space limitations and the huge cost of building several bridges over a creek that floods heavily, a rail line, residences, commercial outlets and government facilities. It was not chosen because it is the best solution to the problem.

[Chriscross309]

Originally Posted by Marc64

This is exactly I have been saying to the naysayers of the traffic circle since this video first got published. The entire reason for the flyover is because the bulk of the traffic will be heading towards Southridge not onto the Kanawha Turnpike. Locals will just have to get over the traffic circle scare as they are becoming more common in the US and this state. They are much safer and very effective at keeping the flow of the traffic.

I also agree that a traffic circle would do well in Cross Lanes along with restricted left turns along the entire road through town up to the second Speedway. If they consolidated some of those driveways at that intersection and did the traffic circle might work, but as it lies right now it would be difficult to make it work. I remember seeing a report done by an engineering firm not too long ago that was studying different alternatives to fixing the traffic issue there and one of them was two roundabouts, one at the Walgreens and the other at the Kroger intersection.

I lived in Upstate NY for a couple years, and loved traffic circles! They are a game changers for so many intersections. There needs to see some implemented in our area, and the Jefferson Rd. project will help with people's fear of them. I could see some along Teays Valley Rd. as well.

I could certainly see a traffic circle at the Kroger light in Cross Lanes. The only problem that I could see would be with buses leaving Andrew Jackson Middle School. I'm sure that could be solved with the buses simply using the street above the circle or some other way.

Back to Jefferson Rd.

I really think that this project has the potential to propel the city of South Charleston. Simply connecting Corridor G, with the MacCorkle Ave. will open the door for businesses at both ends. It would be better if there was a direct connection from 64 (coming from the west) to the new road. That would encourage the Putnam County folks to shop at Southridge more. Not trying to root against Barboursville, but our area needs to stay relevant, or they will pass us up with better access to the interstate. Southridge is closer to the Teays Valley exit than it is to the Huntington Mall exit, however the current set up to get there is more difficult than it is to get to the shopping in Cabell County.